planetary: (Default)
[personal profile] planetary
Okay guys I'm more bored then a board of wood, so I'm going to put out a prompt for yall. Feel free not to answer and tell me about your day if you would prefer

What makes a base breaker in the fandom? How do some characters avoid it despite sharing those qualities? Does the fandom's culture/age/sex have any impact on it?

on 2010-08-12 08:28 pm (UTC)
koyuki: (Default)
Posted by [personal profile] koyuki
How do some characters avoid it despite sharing those qualities?

can't answer the first question, but for this part? I'd say being male helps. It's not always true, but I feel like a lot of male characters get away with more crap than girls do. =\ And it deals a lot with fandom's overall demographic of skewing heavily female.

on 2010-08-12 10:20 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] digitalstarry.livejournal.com
Hm I'd say that's actually not true in a lot of cases. I can think of two male characters off the top of my head from Shoujo series (Masaya from Tokyo Mew Mew and Tuxedo Mask from Sailor Moon) who have polarizing opinions from the fandom and both those series have a female dominated fandom. It may be true for shonen series with a lot of female fans however.

on 2010-08-12 10:31 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] 7th-rock-alien.livejournal.com
It may be true for shonen series with a lot of female fans however.

YGO in all of its incarnations, Gundam in all of its incarnations, Naruto...

Yeah. :|

on 2010-08-13 01:39 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] shinai.livejournal.com
Yeah, but they're kind of the exception and not the rule.

on 2010-08-13 11:45 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] immicolia.livejournal.com
It's interesting to note on the fact of female characters in shonen series is a) they're few and far between. b) they rarely exist to be anything other than love interests. This isn't always the case (Oda is amazing at avoiding this with One Piece) But pretty much everything else I've seen, yes. Thing is, these ladies are also very shallowly characterized. Which can lead to portions of the female audience identifying more strongly with the male characters. Which (and this is a mass oversimplification because I am terrible at meta-ing) in the end leads to slash. Thing is, there will also be a portion that can identify with the female character. And that's where the split lies.

Probably the best example coming to mind is the giant Jo fiasco with Supernatural. When at the start of the the second season the writers flat out announced that they were introducing a female Hunter character who was to be a love interest for one of the male leads. Part of fandom flipped out. This interfered with their fannish joy in two dudes getting it on in between hunting monsters. There was hate before she even appeared on screen. There was another portion who were terribly excited over the prospect of a female Hunter period and wanted to see how this was going to turn out. Ultimately the series writers backed down and minimized her part until writing her out.... then they brought her back to kill her off a few seasons later which is a whole world of UGH but then Supernatural has had this really icky habit of late of killing off everything that isn't a white male so I've kinda stopped watching it :/, I digress.. (personally, I was all "fuck yea, female Hunter... oh god, why a love interest though? WHY?" given that when male writers decide to slap the "love interest" label on some poor female, that's about all her character will amount to. See: damn near every girl in a shonen series ever.)

Other thing to think about the male characters from shoujo you listed off.... I don't know about Tokyo Mew Mew given that I've never seen it. But Tuxie was a love interest in and of himself. And that was pretty much the entire basis of his character. ...that I can remember anyway.

I.... think I had a point in there somewhere? I don't even know anymore. XD

(also I feel the need to point out that YGO wise, Crow is for whatever reason insanely polarizing and has boy parts I think XD. And those who disagree have obviously not looked at the Janime forums like... ever. I picked up on it and I only ever read the spoiler thread XD)

on 2010-08-13 07:45 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] digitalstarry.livejournal.com
I'd make a case that there are some exceptions to female characters with characterization just as good as some of the males (One Piece as you had mentioned earlier, Sherry, Gurren Lagann..) but they also generally play the role of token female or love interest. But them's the breaks with shonen, where the little boys preferred the men getting all the action.

I haven't seen Supernatural but I thought it was a drama and not something that specifically appealed to males.

Yeah, the only thing that bothered me was his role in the final fight against Godwin (and the result that came out of it), seriously wtf at other Signers getting shafted for him >_>;. Although its hilarious to see people argue that he's a canon sue simply because Blackwings are a good deck, considering they had the opposite issues with Judai since the E-Heros and Neos weren't that great.

on 2010-08-13 09:08 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] immicolia.livejournal.com
That's what I said, there are exceptions to that rule.... although I have to beg to differ on Sherry's characterization and I'm trying very hard to not go into a massive "thoughts on Sherry" tangent. She had me hopeful, but ever since her first appearance I've just found her more and more disappointing and entirely flat character wise. I think my hopes might have been way too high considering what series I'm dealing with. I'm hoping the manga incarnation will be better. (I'll take your word on Gurren Lagann, I couldn't get past episode five. I have come to the conclusion that giant robots fighting bores me. And yet somehow I can watch card games.... I don't even know. XD)


Supernatural is sort of in the vein of Buffy, although I've read bits of interviews with the creator talking about how he wanted it to be more of a "guy's show". Part drama, a side of comedy, lots of action. It was meant to appeal to a broad base, it wound up with a mostly female fandom. One chock full of crazy, no less. (hilariously, they're making an anime. Madhouse is doing it... I'm actually kinda anxious to see how it turns out. Despite how seriously ick that show has gotten of late. Maybe the anime will be less vaguely offensive. XD)


Hell, I love Crow to pieces and I still think the whole Godwin fight thing was the lamest thing ever. Hilariously I was just discussing this with someone else who just saw the dub of those episodes who asked me "was there ever more of a reason for him to be there beyond 'he has a motorcycle?'" XD Because let's face it, that's pretty much why the other Signers got shafted, he was the only other one with a bike. And also because they wanted to give Yusei the "leader" mark and needed to stick the tail somewhere so he had to come along. :3

on 2010-08-12 08:50 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] mistressminako.livejournal.com
Hm. Tough question.

I'd say it has something to do with fan response, but damned if I can nail it down.

/will have to ponder this

on 2010-08-12 09:37 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] 7th-rock-alien.livejournal.com
It all depends on the fandom's demographic and the ability of the people within it to accept things that they may not like. If the fandom is full of high-strong, fickle people who can't accept that other people's opinions are just as valid as their own, a million and one things could be a base-breaker. On the other hand, if the demographic is composed of lighthearted people who can take a joke and know how to agree to disagree, it's a lot less likely that there will be a base-breaker. As for the actual number of base-breakers...

Here, let me draw up an equation for you:



Wherein:

FFFFFFF = number of base-breakers
@ = number of people in the fandom
# = length of the series (measured in volumes, episodes, runtime, etc.)
$ = number of adaptations (including different language translations)
! = number of characters (major, minor, or sum thereof)
& = number of pre-established canon pairings
* = number of outlets for fandom participation (include internet forums, Facebook groups, conventions, etc.)

on 2010-08-12 10:21 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] digitalstarry.livejournal.com
... that equation is scary accurate o.o

on 2010-08-12 10:33 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] 7th-rock-alien.livejournal.com
SCIENCE, my dear! >:3 I want to see someone plug in actual values and work it out. XD

on 2010-08-13 01:38 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] shinai.livejournal.com
this is glorious

on 2010-08-13 10:42 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] zippyz.livejournal.com
That.... was amazing.

on 2010-08-13 11:04 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] arynis.livejournal.com
That equation is Made Of Win! :Db

on 2010-08-12 09:48 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] hollie-alr.livejournal.com
If you don't mind me asking, what's a Base Breaker?

on 2010-08-12 10:20 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] digitalstarry.livejournal.com
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BaseBreaker

on 2010-08-12 10:45 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] srsly-smrt.livejournal.com
HNNGH, why do you start interesting topics in the middle of the night when I need to sleep and won't have internet for three days whyyyy... OTL

I'm thinking along the same lines of the first commenter way up there; the demographic of the fandom and the gender of the character are heavily related. In mostly female fandoms male characters get away with a lot of stuff. Why? Urgh... I could go on about that for hours if I hade the time+brains, but long story short, I think it's because males are possible love interests for most females. Okay, hear me out on this one.

Biology is the culprit behind much more than we give it credit for when we discuss the human mind. Somewhere along the lines of history, humans started thinking their brains were better than evolution itself. But that's bull; we're governed by it.

The purpose of life, biologically speaking, is to bring about more individuals of your own species. Therefore the ultimate priority of everything going on backstage in our brain is to make sure we reproduce. This means that the brain of a typical heterosexual will probably have an easier time accepting an individual of the opposite sex (= source of good genetic material) than an individual of the same sex (= competition for good genetic material) despite the two individuals having the same flaws. I could say that this is the case with bi- and homosexuals as well, since the fact remains that you need a male and a female to reproduce. Buuut then I'd be walking on thin ice, and I'm pretty sleepy right now... Still, it's a snippet of thought worth taking into consideration.

If we carry on with my hypothesis with the heterosexuals; let me say that it's not always a character of the opposite sex that will arouse the feelings of rivalry in a fan. Let's say Fan X likes Yuusei very much. According to the workings of evolution, Fan X may or may not dislike Aki, as Fan X may or may not subconsciously percieve her as competition for Yuusei. However, Fan X may or may not dislike Crow as well, for the same reasons.

...I think I had a point with this.

AND I HAVEN'T EVEN GOTTEN INTO PSYCHOLOGICAL REASONS LIKE SEEING YOUR OWN FLAWS IN ANOTHER CHARACTER AND WANTING TO REJECT THEM AND OHGOD.


...I had too much fun with this. I may or may not come back to this when I get back on Sunday. This is the kind of things I want to discuss in fandoms, man! ;3;

on 2010-08-13 01:50 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] shinai.livejournal.com
It depends on what kind of fandom and the type of series you're working with. For instance, in a shonen anime fandom comprised mostly of women, base-breaker characters are more likely to be female.

As for reasons, everyone's already covered quite a few of the obvious ones, but beyond that would require looking at the demographics of individual fandoms and what's going on in those series as far as the characters' roles in the narrative. So if you want me to answer this using 5D's as a springboard, let me know and prepare for a massive wall of tl;dr.

on 2010-08-13 07:45 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] digitalstarry.livejournal.com
Sure why not?

on 2010-08-13 05:54 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] zippyz.livejournal.com
...so me being dumb I had to look up what basebreaker was, ahaha. I laughed pretty hard at the Yugioh part of the list.

"Yu-Gi-Oh, starting from the first spinoff, GX, and onwards. There are some who enjoyed GX, some who hated it from the very beginning, and some who watched it through then suddenly began talking about how much they hated it all along. Then there's 5D's, with one of the most broken fanbases ever. This goes beyond card games on motorbikes, this goes to the most annoying fanbases ever. The only thing that can be agreed on: The final boss for GX was a total cop-out. "


Aww, they forgot the DOMA arc. That has plenty of love it vs hate it.

on 2010-08-13 07:46 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] digitalstarry.livejournal.com
Wouldn't that go under Love it or Hate it section?

on 2010-08-13 09:08 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] zippyz.livejournal.com
Oh probably, I'm not a huge troper so I don't know all the tropes. xD;

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